Careful What You Say: A Controversial Ruling @ GUKPT Brighton
January 21 2009, Mel Lofthouse
I've been in Brighton for the past few days watching the GUKPT tournament and playing a few of the side events and cash games.
Day 2 of the GUKPT and we're down to the last 2 tables and bubble time. A very interesting hand occurred whilst I was in the middle of playing the £250 freeze out. The important thing to remember is that all throughout this tournament there has been great banter with the players.
A hand occurred between Ian Frazer and Priyan De Mel which caused a bit of a riot. I got to the scene about 20mins after it had happened but it was still being talked about. Priyan and Frazer were involved in a hand, the flop and the turn had been played and the river card had just been dealt. Frazer picked up a stack of chips and at the same time so did Priyan. Priyan announced "I got to call". Frazer turned to the dealer and asked if that remark stood. Iwan Jones was at the table and was simultaneously talking about another person being pulled up for exactly the same thing the day previous and the bet was forced into the pot. The dealer thought that the bet stood but wasn't too sure and so a floor was called to speed the game up.
The floor announced that indeed the bet would stand. Now here is where I think it's a little of a grey area. At no point was any amount of a bet mentioned, it was just 2 guys slightly heated and full of testosterone. Sure they had picked up a stack of chips but none had crossed over the line. Frazer over bet the pot at 37000 chips and Priyan was forced to call and Frazer won the pot.
The major debate is this ruling, which was taken directly from the GUKPT website
rule 44 Verbal declarations in turn are binding, verbal declarations out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed when it is their turn to act, check, call or fold is not considered an action change.
This is a rule which myself along with quite a few poker players all agreed that this rule needs to be changed.
Poker is a game where table talk and banter is used constantly along with poker skills and psychology and to enforce a bet (which was out of turn) is wrong. If chips had crossed the line then I agree the ruling is fine. If an amount of a bet had been said then the ruling is fine, but in this instant I believe that this rule was very ambiguous and extremely open to interpretation from all players.
Every card room has different versions of rules. Some are more available to players, but it does seem even more now that it is about time that the Gaming Board enforces every casino that runs poker games to run the same sets of rules for poker. If they got a team of well respected Tournament Directors to check each ruling in the hand book before every casino runs the same rules then it wouldn't go far wrong.
How would you like your whole tournament life being dangled because you said "I have to call (out of turn)"???
I'll open up a debate on our PokerNews UK forum for our readers to talk about it. All comments will be greatly received and will be passed over on email to Jonathan Raab who is Tour Manager and Press Officer for Blue Square.
Our congratulations go to Jonathan for his recent win at the poker awards.
2009 is the third year for the UK's largest poker tour. Blue Square and Grosvenor/G casinos are adding £150,000 in added value this year.
Mel Lofthouse
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Comments
Spam
I agree that there should be one set of rules. It is very frustrating as a player to play in different card rooms in the same country sometimes even in the same town that have different rules, it is the very reason situations like that occur.
It would save everyone a lot of time if we didn't have to debate the rules so often, the tourney clock usually ticking away while these things are sorted out it just makes everyone else in the game frustrated as well. There will never be a rule book that covers every single situation but there certainly could be one that covers most and is used by everyone. You wouldn't see chess players saying "i'm moving my pawn forward 6 places because he said........"
As for that situation, it's hard to say. I don't really think saying "I have to call" can be classed as banter it seems in effect to be along the same lines as string betting. The fact Frazer had not yet declared the amount of his bet or put any chips over the line makes it harder....
'rule 44 Verbal declarations in turn are binding, verbal declarations out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed when it is their turn to act, check, call or fold is not considered an action change.'
....because in that instance as no bet had been declared how could anyone possible know if it had changed or not? Perhaps he was going all in, perhaps he was betting or maybe even checking, no one knows.
So I would say Priyan's comment shouldn't have stood but he should have been given a warning. It was more than likely just banter but there needs to be less grey areas and obviously with one set of rules it never would have been an issue.
Spam
This reminds me of the 2006 WSOP where they introduced the "All-In Chip". There was more than one occasion where a player accidentally crossed the line with that chip and was forced all in because of it. Needless to say, those chips started going in the players' pockets instead of on the table.
Sorry, but I have to agree with the ruling. While no bet had been declared, this comment can affect that decision in an adverse way too. It could be used as a "bluff" move if this rule is not enforced the way that it was. Now, enforcement can include a warning first and then forcing the declared action rather than going straight to forcing the action, but something has to be done to prevent these types of comments during a hand.
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01-21-2009 13:25
Guys i'm after your thoughts and comments about this, so we can forward them onto the powers that change things